What is important about history? For transgender persons there are two things; a understanding of what has occurred and affects our lives today, and a respect for others' efforts as each of us strives to move forward. Professor Elizabeth Reis, affectionately known as "Lizzie," has developed a transgender history class at the University of Oregon.

An exceptional researcher, member of academia and author, Professor Reis has received numerous fellowships and honors, including from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Lilly Teaching Scholar in Religion. She's the author of Damned Women: Sinners And Witches In Puritan New England and the editor of American Sexual Histories, a recent anthology of articles and primary documents concerning the history of sexuality in America.

Gianna: If my understanding is correct, your developing a transgender history class correlated with your interest in the history of sexuality in America. Can you tell me about your class? What reception did you receive from administrators and students? Why and what type of students are interested in the subject?

Lizzie: Incredibly motivated students enroll in both my History of Sexuality class and the Transgender History, Identity, and Politics class. There are some who identify as LGBT (I would say about 1/4 of the class of 40) and the others are just intrigued by the topic. I've taught these classes through both the History and Women's Studies departments and both have been supportive. I don't know if the higher administration has noticed either class; as long as the seats fill, which they do, I think they're satisfied. I suppose it's possible that objections to the course content could be raised (I haven't heard any), but that would be an unfair and unfortunate reading of what I'm trying to do in these classes. In both I'm trying to show how issues of gender and sexuality have been configured throughout American history, and that is a reasonable and scholarly venture.

Gianna: What would you consider to be the defining moments of importance in transgender history? Also focusing on recent developments you have observed, what do you see evolving for transgenders in the future?

Lizzie: The development of medical techniques - both hormonal and surgical - to deal with transsexuality would obviously be defining moments for transgender history. And in my class I deal with this 20th-century shift. But I begin my class in the colonial period, and there aren't defining moments in the same way. First of all, I define transgender very broadly, to encompass a range of cross-dressing, gender-bending, intersex, and transsexual experiences. In early America I teach about people who were arrested for cross-dressing, and we study why there were laws against this and why the laws were enforced in particular places at particular times. Unfortunately there aren't many sources remaining that might explain a person's motivations for cross-dressing, and often we're only left with a fragmentary court document describing the person's arrest and perhaps the court's version of the story.

The lack of historical sources is one of the most challenging aspects of teaching this class. When we study Native American berdache (a problematic term because it began as a derogatory European term for cross-dressing and cross-social role behavior) our primary written sources come from Christian missionaries or other white observers and white anthropologists. Their interpretation of this behavior and identity is informed by their own worldviews, and it is very difficult to get at the meaning of this identity from a Native perspective.

Gianna: Hearing the historical background of berdache is intriguing, and even more so when we look at Native American Queer folk today, some of whom embrace the term as their own. I like this mechanism in which a group of people can take a derogatory term and adopt it into their own identity and gain empowerment from it (and take it away from those who would use it hurtfully).

Taking a closer view at your class, can you describe its curriculum. And, for people unable to attend, what research and reading materials do you consider requisite for a basic understanding of transgender history?

Lizzie: I've taught this class twice and assigned different books each time. This is such a fast-growing field; new books and articles are being published so quickly. I like Pat Califia's Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism, Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors, and Susan Stryker's edited issue of GLQ on transgender issues is a must-read. I'm hoping that Joanne Meyerowitz's new book called How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the U.S. will be out by the next time I teach because it's brilliant. Quite a bit of the published material deals with contemporary issues, and so I read it and try to incorporate it into my class, but I also have to work to keep the class historical. I think the next time I teach it, I'll assign two transsexual autobiographies to see how the narratives have changed over the course of the 20th century. Deirdre McCloskey's Crossing works well in the classroom, and it might be interesting to contrast her experience with Christine Jorgensen's, for example.

Gianna: I reacted emotionally on first hearing that a university level transgender history class exists. Bear in mind that even though I am in my late 30's, I still recollect the recent institutionalization of gender-variant people and that pre-operative transsexuals of my generation were barred from graduate school programs. It is almost as if I never imagined people would see transgender history as relevant and worthwhile. Can you speak to the issues of my reaction.

Lizzie: Yes, I can appreciate your comments. I've received this reaction from many people - even students in their teens and early twenties - who have lived their lives as trans or LGB and have been so completely marginalized. Finally, there's a class that is validating their existence. In fact, I've had this experience in my U.S. Women's History class as well. There are women who are so grateful that women's lives are being taken seriously at the college level. To me, transgender history is so much bigger than the actual number of people who identify as transgendered. It's about gender and how gender relations have been defined and reinforced in America throughout its history. It's also exciting for me because this topic raises many philosophical issues that have no easy answers. Just about every topic raises a complex, political issue, and it's fascinating for me to tease out the implications and to present them in a way that students can fruitfully discuss. For example, should Gender Identity Disorder exist as a "disease?" There are practical reasons for this; a diagnosis can give access to medical services. On the other hand, a diagnosis implies a mental condition, and so there are liabilities as well. The issue becomes clearer if we learn about the history of homosexuality as well and remember that it was only recently - in 1973 - that homosexuality came off the list of psychiatric disorders.

Gianna: I believe your body of work and interests to be fascinating. These include Early American History, Women's History and Religion, Women and Witchcraft, and the History of Sexuality in America. In much of this a common theme evolves, one where society views and portrays women's bodies and lives as vulnerable, out of control, weak and evil. Where do transgender women fit into this picture?

Lizzie: I hadn't really imagined that there was a theme to my work! It certainly hasn't been intentional. But you're right. I am interested in the ways that women's bodies have been constructed, imagined, and policed. What defined a good woman in colonial America? She had to be pious, a good mother and wife, and not contrary or assertive, lest she be accused of witchcraft. What defines a good woman in today's world? Women have cultural ideals to live up to and there are consequences when they don't (though thankfully they're not hanged as witches). Transgender women live with these same cultural expectations, only compounded because we live in a world that does not take kindly to gender variance. The expectations of women and men (and between women and men) have changed over time, but they have always been with us and they continue to affect our lives. I see transgender history falling into the category of cultural history with a specific focus on gender and the challenges that living with and against the rules present.

Gianna: Looking further into these subjects, our country has had its share of witch hunts and unjust persecutions. Often such target people are deemed by society as abnormal, such as transgender individuals. I believe those of us who have a voice at this time have a responsibility to help safeguard against persecution occurring in future generations. What can ordinary transgender persons do today which will lend to that goal?

Lizzie: Not being transgendered myself, I'm hesitant to say that transgender people should do one thing or another. It wouldn't be fair because I'm not living with the daily harassment, fear, and conflicts that trans people face. I think that everyone, including non-trans allies - can work to make the world a more thoughtful place. This is difficult because people tend to be very set in their ways, and they're hesitant to challenge what they think they "know" intuitively. I feel like I'm doing a small part in my classes by exposing students to these topics and by examining the issue of what's "normal." By seeing that what we think of as "normal" has changed over time, students can be more critical and examine some of their own preconceptions.

Gianna: I appreciate what you have to say about making the world a more 'thoughtful' place. This has been a focus in my work with a variety of populations, and essentially comes into its own by our not being careless with other people's feelings or well-being. And, this particularly includes circumstances when we do not understand why others appear, think or act differently.

Reflecting on your own journey, I'm curious what have you learned from teaching transgender history? Do you have an interesting account from transgender life that you heard in class or discovered in your research?

Lizzie: I have learned that in reading about transgendered people in the past we have to sift through the broader culture's expectations about gender. For example, during the Civil War there were countless women who lived as men and fought in the war or acted as spies. We simply don't know enough about them. There are biographies and even autobiographies available for some, but these works present their own biases. These accounts parallel fictional nineteenth-century stories about cross-dressing women in that, at the end, they always come back to being women, and simpering, helpless women at that. It's as if their lives as men were valuable only insofar as they help highlight the "true" identity of nineteenth-century white womanhood. Part of what I'm exploring is the relationship between people's actual lives, which included a trans experience, however broadly defined, and the ways in which these lives have been recorded and remembered.

Gianna: I see civil rights and the development of society as an evolutionary process, which should include reviewing history so that others may learn from the past. What major unspoken issue or unrecognized group of persons do you foresee as the next "coming out?" What will they have gained from the transgender struggle, if anything?

Lizzie: I'm a historian - not Jeane Dixon (this really dates me, but she was one of those TV psychics when I was a kid). I don't know which group will come forward, but I think that anybody can learn from transgender activists. They have been relentless in fighting for their civil rights - indeed, their basic human rights, on so many fronts.

Gianna: I hope you will not mind my slightly straying off the transgender topic. I was inspired by the Catch-22 situation Puritan women faced, of proving their innocence in a manner which mortally condemned them. At its core that is somewhat similar to mechanisms of today's jurisprudence system, where we routinely condemn people to life in prison for various crimes (including the non-violent). What can you tell my readers about this human penchant to continually and indifferently punish people for past mistakes or throw people away?

Lizzie: Puritan women were faced with a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation," as you suggest. If they confessed to witchcraft at Salem, then they were admitting to the worse of sins in that society, and probably thought they were going to die. As it turns out, none of the confessors at Salem died, because authorities were keeping them in prison so that they would name more names, and the episode was over before they got a chance to kill them. The women who consistently denied that they were witches were hanged, however. These women could not successfully prove that they were innocent, that they hadn't made a pact with the devil and become witches. In essence, they had to prove that they were blameless on all accounts - in other words, that they were perfect and pious Puritan women, and no one believed them because the rest of their society was so convinced that they were guilty.

I think that the same basic situation happens over and over again in today's world. The people in the justice system are not distinct from the broader culture, and so it's likely that whatever prejudices and biases exist in the mainstream -like transphobia-will also exist in this arena. That's why exposing the misconceptions we have about various issues and people is so important.

Gianna: In learning about transfolk and developing your curriculum, what, if any, assumptions did you have to overcome?

Lizzie: I initially assumed that if I read widely enough I would find concrete answers to some of the contemporary trans issues raised in my class. For example, does facial feminization surgery for trans women undermine the work that feminists have done in getting women to accept themselves without cosmetic surgery? Or can one argue that a trans woman's physical safety is the most important concern, and if that requires extensive cosmetic surgery, then the debate changes? What are the implications for MTFs? For feminists? How and where do these two groups overlap? This particular issue was debated quite heavily in my class last year. Is there one right answer? I found instead that the excitement lies in the debate and in how such a debate relates to even wider issues of gender, sex, and power in our society.

Gianna: Thank you for this wonderful interview, Lizzie. In closing are there any issues you would like to expand on? And, can you tell a little about your new research on angels in early America?

Lizzie: Thank you, Gianna, for giving me this opportunity to talk about my class. I've enjoyed your questions.

My research on angels is called, "Heaven Help Us: Angels, Gender, and American Religions," and it examines how people have thought about angels from the colonial period to the present. Your readers can read a brief essay I have on-line at www.commonplace.org (the April, 2001 issue). Actually, I've put it on hold for a while because I want to write instead about transgender history. I'm working on an article called "Authenticity and Deception: The Historical Meanings of Transgenderism," that addresses many of the topics I've covered in this interview. I'll keep you posted on its progress.