The following exchange took place in soc.women.lesbian-and-bi. This particular festival has long been an issue with the gender community because of its policy of excluding all transsexuals, including post-operative transsexuals. Prior to this post, the person called "N." had expressed her support of that policy, and "Q." (among many others) had questioned N. about the basis for her position.

Names are omitted here, not only because they are not relevant, but also because N. sent a sincere apology after this was posted, and changed her position on the festival. I certainly do not wish to embarrass her. I also appreciate very much that she was able to see beyond my anger and to look at the underlying issues. (I won't take full credit for changing anyone's viewpoint on this, either; quite a few people objected to the exclusion and to N.'s support of it. Some of the other objectsions were also quite strongly worded.)

I include this piece because the issues raised here go beyond the scope of one particular event. My purpose was to attach a human face to what--for some people--was previously just a label; it is harder to discriminate against a person than to discriminate against a label. Discrimination is a real and continuing problem, not just for transgendered people but for all minorities--and for women in general, even though we are not a minority. It helps none of our causes when we discriminate against each other.

N. writes:

> Q. writes:

>>It is my understanding that TS womyn have had the experience of being female, in a male body; not the experience of being male.

>>There is a difference.

Yes, there is a difference. I was never male. If I ever had been, I'd still be living that way, and none of this would be an issue for me. Q., thank you for recognizing that.

> Perhaps I should have been clearer on my position, I had a long day at work... What I mean is that males (physical) and females (physical), are socialized differently. I as a woman born woman have never known what it was like to experience the priveledges of being in a male body.

Yes, the socialization is different. That was a loss on my part, not a privilege. It is not the male body that brings privilege; it is belonging to the fraternity. I never belonged to that. At times I was excluded; the rest of the time I excluded myself, sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously. I never did fit, and all the denial in the world couldn't change that.

Now that I live as a woman, there is NOTHING that I miss about living as a man.

> Part of the "Festival Experience" is experiencing the goodness of having been born in and living in a woman's body.

This is equivalent to saying that the festival celebrates the goodness of having been born white. Or male. Or pick any other dominant and oppressive group. Call it "female privilege": the right to look down on someone else. This is not about excluding men. It is looking a woman straight in the eye and saying, "You're not enough of a woman for me to think of you as a woman."

> There are many, many festivals around the country that allow all women to participate. This one time of year I enjoy knowing that all these people around me are women, were born women, were socialized as women and are bonding and growing through the experience of being together.

Exclusion is exclusion. Prejudice is prejudice. Justify and rationalize all you want, but it doesn't change the nature of the act.

> I truely believe that TS's ARE women.

I don't believe you. What are you going to tell me next? That some of your best friends are transsexuals? That you have nothing against transsexuals, but you wouldn't want your daughter to marry one?

Look at your own words, above. "I enjoy knowing that all these people around me are women" and "I truely believe that TS's ARE women." How do you reconcile these? Yes, I cut the "women born women" because that is the heart of the exclusion, the prejudice, the arrogance. Either I'm a woman, or I'm not. Make up your mind, and let me know what you decide.

This kind of partial acceptance is a particularly vicious and insidious form of prejudice. It says, "I'll accept you when I have to. I'll accept you when it is advantageous for me. I'll accept you when I can't avoid it. But you're still a second-class citizen, and I'm going to do everything I can get away with to remind you of it. Don't ever think you'll be my equal."

Bloody hell, I'm still using a separate restroom here at work. DOES THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT PREJUDICE?

> But they have had the experience of being socialized as male for some period of time. As such they did enjoy "male" priveledge. I have not and neither have other women born women.

I did not "enjoy" male privilege. I did not have male privilege, for the simple reason that I never belonged. I rejected it, I walked away from it, and I never looked back. I have done this as openly as any transsexual can possibly do it--by coming out at my church, with a whole Sunday morning service devoted to my coming out; by transitioning on the job and doing the same work I did before, with the same people, sitting at the same desk; by living in the same apartment and the same community.

The only recognition I give to my past is to accept that it happened, and to honor the fact that I lived through it. I don't hide it. I don't expect to be judged by it. But I don't push it in people's faces, either, unless they push their prejudice in my face.

I will not be one of the people contesting this issue personally. For my own reasons, I have chosen not to have corrective surgery, but I was able to do that only because I can accept that whatever I happen to have between my legs has nothing to do with who I am as a person. I know that there is nudity at this festival, and that my presence would be disruptive. I understand that no lesbian is likely to accept me at a physical level, but my partner is bisexual, and her acceptance is all that I need. I am mature enough to deal with these issues on my own.

But for the people who have paid the full price to become women, with all of nature and society conspiring against them, this kind of exclusion is enraging. It does affect me, because this exclusion is not limited to the Michigan Womyn's Festival, contrary to your suggestion. It can happen anywhere, in any group of women. It is something that I have to prepare to deal with, every time I consider participating in any women's activity. It doesn't have to be caused by an institutional prejudice; all it takes is one person who considers herself better than me because of an accident of birth.

Yes, there is a lot of bitterness in this post. I accept myself as a transsexual woman; that is not the source of my bitterness. I take pride in what I have achieved in my coming out and in my transition; that is not the source of my bitterness. The source of my bitterness is having to deal with other people's shit, again and again and again.

Perhaps now you'll understand if I don't wish you well as you participate in a celebration founded on prejudice.